How Technology and AI Are Transforming Social Services | Glory from MAC

0:00You got to give me >> Hi everyone and welcome to the Fortell podcast. I'm Scott Schubert, uh one of your hosts and we're really excited to have uh one of our current clients uh from Missouri with us today. So uh Glory, nice to meet you. Um and we'd love to just like kind of hear more about your experience um and just kind of how you got started um in this work and um what that's been like for you. >> For sure. So my background is in social work. And I started in this field, you know, right out of college. Did normal social worky things, working with people on the front lines, going out there and helping, you know, homeless, transitional housing, the whole gamut. And then I took a bit of a break because like most social workers, I got a little burned out. And I got the offer to join a very unique agency, which is what I'm with now, which is MAC. And basically what Mac does is at their roots, they were a nonprofit social service software

1:03provider. You don't ever hear about that kind of thing. So they were providing software to the agencies that I was working with as a social worker. And I was like, I love them. They're great to work with. I would love to be a part of it. So jumped on board with them. That was probably I think like 2011 maybe. We were mainly a software provider at that point. We did a few other things, but basically what MAC did was go into communities and provide a software where all the agencies could talk to each other and communicate about the services that they were providing to the community and really be able to work collaboratively in that way. And then we also got into this very unique field where we were helping utility companies funnel money from like their donations that they were getting from customers to agencies so that they could provide it to communities. So, we're getting into all these different things. We're getting into utilities. And then around 2019, we found out that our local lie agency was no longer going to be able to hold the contract. And our whole city was like up in arms about this. You know,

2:07like what's going to happen? You know, obviously there would still be ways for our community in Kansas City to get those funds, but it might be via people that live nowhere near here and have no concept of what the people in Kansas City are dealing with. So, we threw our hat in the ring and we're like, you know, we had two social workers on staff. We know software. We know how to make processes work. We can figure out a way to make this happen. So, we got the contract. I think we were awarded it in like something like February of 2019 and we were set to open midappril. We didn't have a building. We didn't have staff. This is a pretty big operation compared to like the out outer parts of Missouri. Kansas City's pretty massive in terms of the lie heat program. So, we were like hunting hunting trying to figure it out. We're like, you know what? As long as we can get a building and all that, get staff, we'll figure this out because we knew that we wanted to take Lie Hap a completely different direction. Being in a metro area, you have so many social service providers that are like

3:10meeting with people constantly, providing really good services. There's just a lot. There's public transportation, not phenomenal, but there's so many resources. We wanted to streamline Lie Hap in a way where people didn't have to take extra time to apply, go somewhere in person, have someone ask them nine million questions about the trauma of their entire life. We just wanted to be like, you are eligible for these services. Let's just figure out the easiest way to get you this money. [laughter] So, that's pretty much what we did. So, we built it pretty much from the ground up in like two months. It was absolutely wild. Um, and it's been crazy along the way because we actually are operating in a way that no one in our state really ever has. We consider ourselves to be what we would call a processing center. So quite literally all we do is we get paperwork applications sometimes, you know, electronically as well. We process them and we apply funds to the account. We don't ever typically see the client in person. We may never talk to them. We just want to process that money and get it to them as quickly as possible, which has thrown our state for a loop.

4:15Because as you know most lie agencies provide a lot of wraparound services and meet with people and do all these things which there is definitely a huge need for that in some communities but for our community particularly the need was for us to just get this money to people as quick as possible because we've got lots of other people on the ground wrapping services around our clients. So we do a lot of training of agencies on how to get their clients to apply. We also are very lucky in that our electric company company actually has what they call a connect center where you can go in person to talk with your electric company. Well, we utilize that now. So, once a week we have some of our staff go there to meet with people in in person that are having issues and they don't have to have that electric company. Really, anybody can come and just, you know, ask questions in person or if they have any kind of barriers that make it hard for them to apply, they can come that way. Um, so we've really just tried to maximize everything that's already in place and do the part, the small part that we need to to just funnel that money to their account as quickly as possible. So it's been an exciting

5:17process. Um, and we've loved being able to kind of figure out how we can use AI to really make that even more of an efficient process because that's what we're all about. I mean, at our core, we're technically a technology company. So, um, we're just kind of wearing a different hat because our community needed it. So, it's been it's been an adventure for sure. Just before we go on to the AI glory because I I think what you just said is such an interesting journey. What would you think was the benefit of you not having a lightly program of starting from scratch and thinking about it from horrible tech phrase first principles? Like what um just tell me about what you think the advantages of that were. >> Well, I think we have been able to kind of question everything that's been in place for decades, right? Like they're like, "Well, this is how we do it." I'm like, "But why? Why do you do it that way? You know, when studies are showing that it's more efficient to do this or, you know, it's better for your employees to have it be done this way. You know, there's so many different ways that we come at it because we just don't understand. And not understanding actually allows you to ask a lot more

6:20questions and be able to kind of see like, hey, okay, well, it sounds like this doesn't make sense anymore, so let's figure out what else we can come up with. >> Yeah. And so, I want to kind of switch gears a little bit. you know, Rob will probably get in the AI. I I like to do the hard stuff. Um, so, you know, when you were talking about, you know, kind of your own journey around kind of the burnout and what you were experiencing, that's a common thing that we often hear from providers that we hear from social workers that we hear from my heat providers and that's a big part of like why we exist is because we saw that, you know. So, you know, I'm wondering if you're, you know, willing to share more about like, you know, what that's been like and then also like your journey towards, you know, finding something different and what that's been like for you. >> Yeah. No, for sure. I mean, people in the nonprofit field get burned out very easily because there's just not funds to support them. They've got stressors at home because they're obviously not

7:22getting paid like a ton of money. So, they're living in stressful situations, dealing with stress at work. I can tell you just hilariously wild stories that I was in in my early days as a social worker. And what is so cool is that I pretty much took that and was like, I want to create an environment where people who want to help others don't have to feel like they're in trauma at work daily as well, right? Like that was my goal. And so I think I wouldn't have gotten to that place obviously if I hadn't experienced like one time we had pee dripping from the ceiling of one of my jobs in the early days and the solution was they told me I should just wear a garbage bag like that would protect me from the pee that was dripping from the ceiling. Anyway, it was it was a wild adventure and I'm sure lots of other people in this field have wild stories too. But like all of that experience led me to think like okay we have an issue here. We have these prized people who want to help others that have so much to bring to the table, yet they're like working

8:25in horrible environments, not getting paid very much, and honestly like taking on so much stress from all the people that they're working with. Like we don't want that for them. So that's been the really cool part is I joined Mac in the early days because I wanted to help people on the front lines just with their technology. I wanted to be like, okay, you're here with a person in crisis in front of you. let me help you get logged into our database the easiest way possible. [laughter] And it's kind of evolved from there. And I always tell people like taking on this grant has been the dream for me because I was able to build an office space that was literally everything I could have ever wanted. Create a work environment. And I'm I'm going to say something most people don't say, but thank God for COVID. I was able to finally get the state to agree to let us allow people to work remote, which they weren't open to before. So now I have people that can work in the comfort of their homes and process these applications and we have had so much flexibility. I always tell people the government gives you a lot of guidelines, but also we have a lot of

9:28freedom. So I tell my team all the time like if you're doing some type of work for us today and for whatever reason it's draining the life out of you, tell us. We're going to shift you to something else. I don't care what your job description is. If you need to do something different today because you need to, we can make that happen. No problem. So yeah, this program has been a blessing for me because I've been able to really create a work environment and a structure that I had always wanted when I was on the front lines. >> That's such a great story. And talk to me about like so you know heat can be you know what you what you said before was essentially that you can you've enabled you basically tech enabled the whole light application right like the way people can do it in a way that the state never did before. So just just talk us through why you thought because you know there's a lot of reasons why people say you know there are seniors who don't know how to use or go online and there are people who speak different languages um there are lots of reasons or barriers why people say that that's not possible so just explain to us what did you do how did you think about it

10:32and maybe what worked and you know some of the things that didn't >> so I will say it was bumpy getting started I'm I'm not going to fool you know the whole entire community was used to a very visual process of I see where I go to line up for assistance. I stand in that line for hours waiting to apply. I meet with someone in person. I do all this work and then you know a few days from now I'll get help. Right? Like it was something that our community saw regularly and all of a sudden they're not seeing anything, right? And so I think there was just a lot of energy of questioning like is this even happening? like are you even helping people because we don't see the lines anymore and we can't go in person and see a person face to face and so there was a journey of trying to be like almost proving ourselves like yes we are going to show up for our community still you're just not going to be having to wait in a line to get it um so part of that was just a transition time but also I can tell you one thing about people in need is they are resourceful and I think in a lot of ways we actually cut people short when

11:36we're like oh well they can't they can't figure this out, you know, like no, they're doing this in many other areas of their life in frankly in ways that the average person probably isn't. They can figure this out and they have and again we've found time and time again these people are linked into so many things you don't even know. And it's gonna sound silly, but the value in that and almost like empowering them in that way that like people don't really recognize, but like the neighbor who helps her entire block fill out their lip application every year. Like there's value in that, right? Like there's so much good exchange happening there, too. It's different than them coming to us, but it's still incredibly valuable that that community is like, "Hey, no, come to my house on Sunday. We're all going to fill out our lie heap application together, and I'll send it in for everyone." because like the old lady on the corner, she doesn't have a computer, but I'm going to help her. Like that's pretty freaking cool, too. >> It's like it's really the idea of like neighborhood connection building type of things.

12:37>> And we want to connect people back to their communities, to their neighbors, to the agency that gives them their food pantry. We want to connect them back to what they're already doing. Those are their resources. We don't need to pull them out and be like, "Hey, come see us on this island so we can help you with like $300 towards your bill." Like, that's silliness. It's like let's just utilize what's already there. We can figure this out. People have done it for ages. And if we don't do this, like what are we doing? Slowing it down so that the next generation still has to fill out an application on paper. Like that's not really serving our community in any way. >> Yeah, totally. Um yeah, and I think that's that aligns with a lot of the things I was seeing in the work that we were doing. Um, and so, you know, interesting story, you know, I was actually flying from Missouri at a conference to Seattle for another conference where I live. And you were we actually met in Seattle. Um, which was [laughter] which was >> I think we crossed paths somehow, didn't you? >> We did. We did through the hurricane or the tornado, you know. Um, so, you know, that was kind of our first interaction,

13:42me and you. Um, and I'd love to just kind of hear from you like when you saw kind of what we were developing, what that was like. You know, I'd love to kind of hear about your experience with us at Foretell, like what that's been like. And um, >> no, this is going to throw you for a loop because I don't even think I've told you this story, but um, the woman that was presenting with you, I cannot remember her name, but she was like I'm gonna I'm gonna spitball. Maybe she was in her 50s or 60s. I don't really know. Um, but the fact that she was up there sharing about this technology that she was using in a way that was benefiting her agency, I was like, "Okay, I'm in. I'm in." Like really, I didn't even need to talk to you, Scott. I only needed to talk to her. [laughter] >> Miss Menise sells it herself. So, yeah. >> Because that's what [clears throat] I wanted to see is that like someone could see the benefit that wasn't my generation, right? Like, I wanted to see someone who is the person who in theory is falling in the gap, right? the people that aren't on board for this actually saying, "No, this is going to work and this is going to benefit you." And I'm like, "Great. Then I can get everyone else on board." Everyone else I've got

14:44taken care of. But if that generation thinks this is a good idea, I can try it. >> No, that's super cool. And so like what how how did you you know when Scott showed it, what did you think? And what did you think? Because Denise is wonderful. She was you know >> Oh, is that who it was? Yeah. >> Literally. Yeah. Denise Wells as our first our first customer um who used to work with Scott and um yeah she she's just been such a champion of it because of you know the problem you know that it solved for for MDC but what how is it how's it worked for you like you have you implemented it what does it do for you because obviously you're very tech enabled anyway yeah we'd love to understand more >> yeah so I think our biggest thing was because we don't see people face to face there is so much burden on our phone system because we do have people that submit emails. We have a lot of email back and forth, but the phones still are obviously a common way that people use to communicate and it's it's one of the biggest burdening areas we have partially because as you know there's a burden also that falls on the

15:48person that's on that phone and talking to people a cajillion times a day and them you know offloading everything that's going on in their life. It's not only a time suck, it's also like an energy suck for the people that we have working on our team. And that is something that I don't think can be diminished. That is a serious risk to your agency. You're going to have a lot of turnover over time if you're having people having to listen to people's traumatic stories, you know, every single day. And we needed a way to lower that burden. And I was always afraid that we would lose the personal touch that, you know, using some kind of system would be very stressful and frustrating for our clients. But truly, the way that Denise had demonstrated it and all that, it really did seem to have a personal touch still to it. And it allowed that room. We like to call it like airing out the tire, right? If someone's like really amped up, which a lot of our clients are because they're in trauma, their lights are off, right? That person needs a second to air out their tire. And so immediately when I saw the demo, I thought, "Oh, so a computer can almost prompt this person

16:52to let the air out of their tire, get out what they need to get out for today, say all the things they need to say. It's not negatively impacting my staff, and we can get the information to them that they need." So to me, that seemed like a really valuable tool, especially again being in this field where people get burned out very quickly. >> Oh yeah, totally. And I think that one of the things that you were saying that really resonates with me is like the idea like of letting that air out of the tire because often what we found is that in social services people are prompted to like overshare at times because they're like hey I have to you know if we're asking a question like what's your income often people will give you a long drawn out you know like experience which is which is really impactful, but from a compliance and from what we're needing, we're really needing that number. Right. Exactly. >> So, you know, often what happens is we get um more details than what we need

17:57and then we have a responsibility for what are we going to do with that, you know, information. And so, um that really resonates with me in terms of what you've been, you know, kind of sharing. Um, yeah. So, I appreciate that and want to kind of hear too from you like, you know, we've started our implementation and stuff like that. What's that been like for you guys? Like what have you guys learned about your process? What has it been like working with the team? You know, love to >> Yeah. Um, I think overall like it's challenged us in new ways to really streamline how we respond to people. Like I think that's probably the biggest thing that happens to a lot of agencies that use it, right? is like, okay, but like if we're going to tell a computer how we want it to take this person through the process, it can be fairly complex taking what a human was doing and obviously moving that over. So that has been a little bit challenging to kind of figure out, okay, just like if we're going to broad brush, what do we want it to respond in this scenario, but you know, it's been the team has been phenomenal. Um, working with Jamie has been great. We can literally just send

18:59him an email and be like, "Hey, make this change." He makes it almost immediately. And that's been really really helpful. And I think um you know sometimes when you work with different vendors you're dealing with like five million people and like this person for this and this person for this and he's been great at like handling everything. So we don't really have to mess around. We've had a few calls with multiple people but for the most part he handles all of it and then kind of filters it for us which makes it a lot easier too. you know, he'll be very happy to hear that, but we're not going to like give him too much praise because people don't like that. We we you know, we'll get complacent. No, but Jamie is Jamie is great and I'm pleased you've had that experience with us. And it's also just a just a little bit more of a process question. So, like, you know, in in a lot of states, I mean, in Scott State and Washington State, um, you know, it's pretty much appointments for Lee. Um, and and doing away with that, like now that you've done it for a while, h how is that how's that felt for the community? Has it has it worked for them? How has it changed? Like I just love to hear about because that's a debate that a lot of people like we have

20:02customers in Tennessee who don't do appointments at all. Statemandated is all online. We have customers in Kentucky. It's all appointment. Like what are the pros and cons for you and how have you sort of mitigated some of the challenges too? >> Yeah, I feel like we've gotten pretty positive feedback. The biggest thing which this is like mind-blowing to me. When we first opened we were getting about 12,000 applications a year. Right now we're about up to 20,000 um which is insane. And now if you would ask the average person that wouldn't be something that you would assume would happen by actually having less of a physical presence, right? Like you would think physical presence means you're having more ability to reach people. But we have found the o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o opp opposite to be true because we've been able again to utilize the pre-existing agencies and supports and [clears throat] be able to actually just build off of those which has been way more impactful than us just trying to stand on an island and like yell from the street like, "Hey, come apply for life." You know, like go to the places where the people already are. Reach them there. And now it's like I we've grown

21:06exponentially faster in terms of reaching our community than I really anticipated we would. And I mean that's kind of why we're we're having to use all kinds of avenues. Every year we're like how are we going to do this again? This is crazy. It's getting big so fast because again we open that was only 2019 so it wasn't really that long ago. Um but yeah, again I think people think that they have to almost reinvent the wheel and we kind of did but by using what was already there. You know we did create a new process but by building on what our community already had available to it. >> Great. Thanks for sharing that. Um so I'm going to kind of wrap us up uh with this kind of last question. Um, so you know, as I was hearing about your story in, um, your experience like prior to Mac, um, you know, you were talking about your burnout and, you know, the trash bag recommendation. So, I want you to take a second and just, you know, like think about when you think about

22:08Glory, you know, back in that day, um, kind of in the thick of everything. What advice would you give her now? um now that you've kind of seen a different version um like what would you say to that person at that time? >> I would probably just tell her that you know it doesn't have to look the way that you think it's always looked and that would be with my career and the work that I do now is like just take your wildest dream and actually like figure out if you could make it happen because you probably can. Like there probably is a way. I remember I didn't actually end up getting my masters in social work and everyone was like that's such a silly decision. You're gonna want it. You're gonna want it. And I was like, I really have a feeling that I'm going to go a different path. And I'm so glad I didn't do that. It wouldn't it would have been a waste for me because I knew that there was going to be a very different path. So I would just say to her like follow it. Like you know what you need to be doing. Just go after what you want to go after because you're going to be able to help people way better doing what aligns with you versus what the world is telling you. >> Wow. That's that's really profound and beautiful. So thanks for sharing that

23:12and thanks for joining us. We really appreciate it. Um, and excited to kind of continue to tell the story of the, you know, what we were able to do with Max. So, >> yeah, for sure. I'm excited. >> Thanks so much, D.